Author Topic: Discussion on the relevance of Origin & Receipt at the Overwhelm Levels  (Read 138 times)

Khepri

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When moving up the levels of TROM the distinctions between the basic 4 actions becomes finer and finer, resulting in the 16 levels at TROM 5.

It has become apparent to myself that Origin and Receipt referencing is a requirement when looking at the game levels as these are postulated by whom is starting the game. However the Overwhem levels are end-game scenarios, where one of the players finishes the game by having the other give up their own postulate and adopt the PD postulate of the other. In this situation the Origin / Receipt status is a moot point really - and if it is focused upon then all it really does is feed the Overt/Motivator justification pattern.

So, if O/R is considered in Leg 1 overwhelms (7A and 8B), then one would need to know which level 7B or 8A was the start-game, as we are now at an end game. Thus, for every Overt/Motivator there would be 2 possible starting conditions: 7B->7A, 8B->7A or 7B->8B, 8A->8B respectively.

If O/R is not a requirement, (and I suspect this is the case), then the idea of O/R is a moot point as stated and thus can be removed from the chart or referenced in another manner.

For myself the FLOW arrow on the revised chart simply allows one to see the flow of the postulate overwhelm, which is a totally different structure to the starting postulate of the Game states, which is who started this game.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:09:58 am by Khepri »

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TromFan

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O/R is not a moot point. If you listen to the lecture Dennis sent to Judith on level five, this will become quite clear to you.
When one is overwhelmed and forced to take on another's postulate as his own, this is relevant. He is buying into the lie. 
And if you look at how the postulate failure cycle flows in real life, one takes on the other's postulate passively, then he starts to actively enforce it. The person who must be known then is prevented from being known then starts to prevent others from knowing him.
Read the section again on the postulate failure cycle. Dennis says there  are actually two definitions for 'must'.  One of them is 'have to' and the other is 'can't help but'.
I would say if someone is actively preventing himself from being known because he was overwhelmed by someone's 'not-know' postulate into 'must not be known' at one time, then Origin and Receipt become highly relevant.
I know  I may sound like a broken record on this point, but once you reach level 5A and do the exercises for awhile, what I am saying will be so crystal clear to you that you will wonder why you ever saw  it any other way.

Khepri

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The query arose from the following idea that determining the victor in a game with specific Originator and Receipt roles, is based on the end point of whom Overwhelms or is Overwhelmed - not on who started it (Originator).

Here are some possibilities:

1. Originator-specific victory conditions:
Direct victory for Originator: In some games, the Originator might win by achieving objectives related to their initial action or by successfully forcing the Receipt player into specific responses.

2. Receipt-specific victory conditions:
Receipt counters and wins: The Receipt player might win by countering the Originator's actions effectively or achieving objectives based on their responses.

These conditions are very easily referenced in the Game Classes - and they are proposed in the Overt/Motivator Classes, the idea that as you originate the game means you win the game is not always true (Adolf Hitler for instance).

So my open question for a discussion back in 2022, was that is it not true that there is a possibility that one can start/originate a game and yet still be overwhelmed by the recipient? I see this like musically playing an A Sharp Note or a B Flat Note, they are the same note just coming from different directions.

One would have to get clear definitions for Origin and Receipt: From DS "Origin means the originator in a game; Receipt means the responder in a game. Receipt responds to Origin; Origin causes Receipt to respond. It's purely a matter of who starts, or originates, the game."

Getting a little more detail from Google:

The "originator" is the player who starts the interaction or action, prompting a response from the "receipt" player.
They are the driving force behind the initial move, setting the stage for the game's dynamic.

Key characteristics of an originator:

Initiator: They are the first to act, triggering the response within the game.
Directionality: Their action creates a flow of interaction, directing the attention and response of the receipt player.
Focus on starting point: The term "originator" emphasises their crucial role in setting the initial conditions of the game.

I hope this helps give clarity on the discussion point
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 05:47:31 am by Khepri »

Khepri

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Following up on this discussion, one could consider that:
  • Origin in Game Levels relates to who originates the start of the Game
  • Origin in Overwhelm Levels relates to who originates the end of the Game
Contextually different but logically sound

A revised chapter in the full package book is linked here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BJunEpgVT4vtDwb-_FoHdlgGNPKUEgmR/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 07:04:05 am by Khepri »

TromFan

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Have you gotten to level five yet?