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Messages - mjh

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Nice Work! thanks for sharing

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 15, 2019, 03:40:22 pm »
I had a feeling that if I stopped arguing with you that you would get it.  So glad for you!

Thank you for that! I found it interesting that Dennis never mentions what the recurring patterns are on the PFCC and in which direction they run. It's kind of obvious after you've seen it, and the see how the flows run. :)

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 15, 2019, 12:37:25 pm »
Ok - I believe I now have this understood, it's not an easy cognition to get...

I had to go back to a basic evaluation question - "what needs to be true for this to be true?"

I found that answer in the Level 5 process:
The being, in life, enters games with an effect at 8b; after many vicissitudes he quits playing games with this effect at 1a. 

This reconfirmed that 1A is where it should be, we leave where we came in but the mirrored impression. (as a side note, I've never said the chart was wrong, I've been saying I don't understand how it is formulated in the way it is)

So this post is a form of exercising my cognitive flow - kind of writing up a win, but also a way to consolidate my thinking - I hope it may be useful to another.

On reviewing the PFCC - there were some items that I had not fully explored. This was the 'Recurring Pattern' and 'Break in Pattern' references, again I was looking at 'what had to be true for this to be true?'

I could see that SELF moved from 8B -> 1A and the recurring pattern fit to each set of four, with three of the same postulate then a change on the fourth. The pattern of the OTHER initially eluded me until I saw that their pattern runs from 1A -> 8B on the chart, the exact counter-flow to ours.

Double checking definitions for Overt and Motivator:

Overwhelming the postulate of an opponent in a game is known as an overt act.

Having one’s own postulates overwhelmed is called a motivator.

Everything became clear, the chart does not exactly reflect the Postulate Failure Cycle (Thank you David for your comment on this last year, it didn't fully land until last night - comm cycles can take awhile sometimes!). The meta-view of the chart does this i.e. each sector of four shows the legs, though within them we see the full expression of the Postulate itself.

In the OVERT we see ourselves causing failure on another through vanquishment - FORCING or PREVENTING
In the MOTIVATOR (the exact counter opposite flow) we see ourselves being vanquished by another - FORCED or PREVENTED

and we have the two game conditions - one where we start the game and one where they start the game.

The end result of these two game conditions is not provided, and this is where I have dubbed in a result from the Postulate Failure Cycle, based on who started the game, finished the game. This was never a requirement, at least I currently don't think so, and potentially is where the contention between myself and TromFan got entangled.

Simply each sector of four offers all the possible options a being may experience within that scope of postulate.

Therefore, a being holding the MBK postulate will start by INFLICTING on another and at a later point will be REJECTED, ultimately moving them to MNBK where they will DEPRIVE until they are REVEALED - At this point, the 'shift' occurs and they become the other at MK where they go into REVELATION until they are DEPRIVED from knowing, moving them to MNK where they will REJECT until they experience that INFLICTION they started the whole cycle off with when they came in.

Many thanks people - that was quite a ride! :)

Perspective and viewpoints are wonderful things - especially when they move and are adopted!

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 14, 2019, 07:42:35 pm »
It's a shame you want to stop a meaningful discussion.

I am intrigued that you state you know what I am THINKING though. This is clearly wrong as I did not state what you have dubbed in.

My definition of a Valence Shift comes from the beginning of Dennis' book, he very clearly explains how this occurs.

I am more concerned that you proposed a being may move from MNBK to MBK, it is datums that deny this that I am utilising to keep a level head and be willing to evaluate for myself how the chart is built and how one moves through the legs.

If you can reference anywhere in the TROM materials that states this occurs I would be very happy as it would aid in developing my understanding.

I believe that you and I are both in a position of MK with respect to TROM, or neither of us would be here communicating. I get the sense that you have conceived that I am proposing the revised PFC as an alternative, I am not, therefore I am not taking any opposition to my discussion. I am only wanting to make sense of something that does not appear to fit the datums provided.

You have not offered any significant reference to prove otherwise, you have given your subjective opinion, your inner certainty and some false data in response and now knocking my understanding then closing the door on this...

TromFan, my door is always open.


General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 14, 2019, 01:35:07 am »
On your chart you have someone driving you into must know with their must know postulate going from 5b to 5a, then having that “other” changing their postulate to must be known for no apparent reason at all.

Is there a good reason why they shouldn't?

My only reference for this as stated, is that once self moves to MK you cannot have both self and other in the same postulate.

At origin, if someone is aiming a must know postulate at you, it’s not going to result in you wanting to must know them if they overwhelm you.

Yes, this is exactly what happens. As MBK has already failed, you cannot go to MK's PD. Therefore you have to switch valence and become them at MK. This is clearly stated by Dennis in the beginning of the book.

1b to 1a someone is not going to drive you into must be known with a must be known postulate.
In other words, you have the chart going into a situation where someone is forcing their own self determined postulate.  They can only put you into their pan determined postulate.

Again, yes this is exactly what happens. They are not forcing their SD postulate on you, they are forcing their PD postulate on you that you cannot adopt as it failed you utterly and your only choice is to become your opponent... :( It's called a valence shift

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 14, 2019, 12:27:17 am »
There is only a couple of questions here.

What is the required structure to initiate a shift in valence?

Why does this occur?

The answers to these two questions are key to my query and I believe are also key to understanding TROM.

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 13, 2019, 09:19:58 pm »
OK, now that you put your chart up the way you see it, I can tell you right off that in the revised version there is one fundamental and glaring flaw--- you have both parties changing their postulates going 1b to 1a and then again the same flaw in the center of the chart.  The way the original chart reads, you don't have that sort of switchoff.

I agree that this flip causes a discrepancy - though consider that as SELF changes valence from MNBK to MK, on the chart can the OTHER remain as MK? No, as that would have both SELF and OTHER as MK.

As well as this SELF cannot remain as MNBK as they have shifted valence...  yet neither of these scenarios, explain how one can shift from MNBK to MBK, which Dennis clearly states is not possible and is the fundamental reason a valence shift occurs.

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 13, 2019, 07:05:28 pm »
TromFan, please see attached as discussed - this brings each level into alignment with the 1-2-3-4 leg shift. the original chart does not...
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This also fits with DHS statement:

The SD postulate of the vanquished has now gone off the board; with it, of course, goes the PD postulate of the vanquished. Both the SD and PD postulates of the vanquished
are thus off the board (out of play) at the point of overwhelm.
Where have they gone to? They are in failure: they are no longer considered tenable in that game.
[The vanquished may resurge and play another game of this type later in time, but the current game with that particular effect is lost in the opinion of the vanquished.-DHS]

As after each stage that the self is vanquished they come back again as Origin of Effect.

For myself, from my understanding of how one shifts through these four 'states' -

5B (MNBK) has a valance shift and becomes MK
5B (leg 2) -> 1A (leg 3) -> 4B (leg 3)

1B (MNK) has a valance shift and becomes MBK
1B (leg 4) -> 5A (leg 1) -> 8B (leg 1)

This is not how it works on the original chart. The Original Chart is here - note the leg shifts:

5B (leg 2) -> 5A (leg 1) -> 4B (leg 3)
1B (leg 4) -> 1A (leg 3) -> 8B (leg 1)

These do not align with the original patterning - someone please explain how this is so. Also, DHS states at the beginning of the book that a being can not go from MNBK to MBK, this is the reason why there is a valence shift. And, they can not go from MNK to MK, hence the second valence shift - why then does the chart show this???

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General Discussion / Re: Please message me if you need help
« on: June 12, 2019, 03:23:17 pm »
I did not understand how level five runs until I read that transcript of Dennis showing the first four commands step by step.

TromFan can you direct my attention to this section in the original materials please?

General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 12, 2019, 03:08:35 pm »
Hi - RI produces reactions - things feel flat on Lvl2, boredom... maybe I overrun it?

Ok - so I just picked a moment way back in time to run on 2 and it sparked right up again!


General Discussion / Re: Postulate Failure Chart
« on: June 12, 2019, 01:28:41 pm »
TromFan - I haven't got to five yet, TBH I am still floundering around at the bottom looking for case change.

Maybe your query is the impetus to reapply myself here.


All the best

Read TROM here / Re: Comprehensive Glossary for TROM a Games Manual
« on: June 01, 2019, 11:45:20 am »
Thank you TromFan - changed and uploaded

Read TROM here / Re: Comprehensive Glossary for TROM a Games Manual
« on: May 25, 2019, 06:31:14 pm »

Many thanks for this - as a fellow being in service, I hope you don't mind I have reformatted this and included links in the document.

Awesome link!

Level three TROM / Re: Is Timebreaking a Fun Activity For You?
« on: April 03, 2018, 07:39:32 am »
Karalee - can you please provide some detail on John's procedure?

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