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Messages - Karalee

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On p.22 of The TROM book, I see two sentences which confuse me:

The first one is: """All the subject of reason limit the possible and define the reasonable"""

This is not a well-formed English sentence. What do you suppose the author was trying to express here?

Next we read: """The most reasonable postulate is a complementary postulate"""

The reason this confuses me is that I wonder why a postulate needs to be complementary to anything: it stands on its own.

Good question. Does a postulate really stand on its own in an interactive game with "others"?  Yes perhaps in Flow 0 (self to self) that is true.  For example, if I wish to populate my secret planet with "only me's", exact duplicates...?

In the Old Testament the O.T. deity once said, "Come and let us reason together..." For example, if my partner is looking at his past and projecting [bad or manic] futures based on scenes from the past then I can look him in the eyes and attempt to bring him back to present time reasoning, based upon what is now here. I can even ask them to tell me what scene they are looking at, specifically ("Did that happen to you before?") . 

Not-reason tends to be very generalized, such as "I don't have a life!".  I tend to associate reason with logic.  Some questions that invoke reason  instead of unfettered and frustrated ambition are, "What is your next step?", and so we agree what is the next step and the universe and society will tell us what sub-steps we need to take to reach that next step.  For example, before purchasing tools for a new business or putting time into a new business (the next step) we must have all monthly bills current; we must be in good health, mentally and physically up to the challenge, or we will be zug-zwanged.  Setting too high goals doomed to failure only give our ego bragging rights for how much of a failure we are (inverse ego).

Dennis talks about being zug-zwanged (spelling?) by rules or by universe laws, which happens to all to a greater or less extent.  Most people are zug-zwanged by violating the biochemical and anatomical realities of the human body intelligence, thus bringing disability upon themselves, physically and emotionally, thus prematurely ending a promising upward statistic re their business or occupation.  For example, Steve Jobs.

To put it in a nutshell, reason is being complementary to unavoidable, unsurmountable rules and laws (by your considerations and group considerations, and universe physics).  However, Pete tells the story of how he beat the tax man with a pan-determined postulate.... and he achieved complementary postulates = no more gaming.

Contagion with opposing postulates happens all the time.  The school system is designed to produce “good “ citizens who go to work and pay taxes because it is the right thing to do.  But if you see that the government is corrupt then paying taxes is the wrong thing to do.
A kid falls in love with a certain girl but she rejects him and he decides he is no good.
A team has a loosing season and decides that they are second rate players.

All of these are contagion by opposing postulates. Life is full of them.


Like when I make optimistic conjectures only to be automatically countered with negativity over and over again, until I "learn".   :)

General Discussion / Re: Jordan Peterson Self Authoring Program
« on: July 15, 2018, 01:41:38 pm »
Yeah, man, that's the ticket for sure. 

Byron-Katie also advises something similar using her workbook, "The Work".
And you don't have to show it to anyone either.

General Discussion / Re: Definitions for Overt / Motivator
« on: July 15, 2018, 01:39:30 pm »
Hehe, an overt act for myself would be anything that would cause another to feel bad (or dead) and I get at least some momentary pleasure sensation from it - of course it had to be justified, either before or after.  For example, in a justified war if one were a voluntary sniper in a tree top and loved the sensation of inflicting others - plus might even get a medal and a nice pension ....  haven't we all been there?  We did just have two back to back world wars ....

Good sensation can be had from non-life goals, even if for only a moment.

Then of course there are the good sensations we compulsively seek from our life-oriented goals that have gotten out of hand and are compulsively enforced or prevented from the viewpoint of the "others".  For example, "You must eat my wonderful cooking...!"  Do I smell a motivator coming?    :D


I've found the thoroughness of the Knowledgism rundowns really something wonderful though, so Alan Walter is definitely somebody whose work I don't take lightly(not to suggest anyone was!).  To be able to run the charge out and inspect the individual moods(tones) relating to an item or identity was a game changer for me I never experienced in SCN.

In an experimental auditing session I last year had the PRESENCE PROCESS start to be run on me and it was a doozie....just that one session.  That comes out of Knowledgeism.

 highly recommend someone running that to no more change and then posting about it here.

Yes, Alan Walter was a master in the marketing area. He could build impressive organizations in a field that was only half way working.
But my experience with the elite guys in orgs is that most of them had a good portion of manic tendencies, everything should be fantastic.

A more workable truth is that nothing needs to be fantastic, it just needs to work   ;D

I can also see the point of the theory that Alan was referring to a bug in the area of postulates in general, not TROM.
Very possible...
In doing TROM at a slow pace and reading the materials several times, I have never been able to find a real bug in the theory.

And I have found 4 or 5 real destructive bugs in Scio, major stuff (at least mind shattering for me). I believe TROM is as clean as it gets.
Of course there are areas he doesn't mention, but the materials work without it. And one discovers these areas along the way anyway..

I concur with you 100% - In reading and doing TROM I love its simplicity and how it does work for me - when I actually work with it.  But once you get to the point where it is fun - where you make sure it is fun for you - then you start more and more to look forward to the next session.  It really helps to have a twin, both you doing separate RI and timebreaking, but at the same time and place, or even over Skype.

Inch by inch I feel I'm starting to get some command power over my mind  - until it comes up with the next BIG THING, lol!

Yes I agree there is a big in trom. But once you spot the bug it works. But it's not trom it's the mind. The big i see is when looking for "must not be knows" the mind says must not look- so it bounces you out. It's like a double wammy.

Thinking more on this, Dennis correctly said the being is scaredy-cat about looking into its own mind - from the tape where he talks about how he started to get the idea for TROM practices. 

Personally I developed or adopted sensory experiences that I could allow myself in this society that did satiate or quiet the mind temporarily, in lieu of taking measures in my own hands and learning how to safely get a handle on my mental processes.  For example, I love my mind when I am working on a creative aesthetic project, and would only be interested in getting better at "To Create".

If you recall, Alan died at a very great body weight - perhaps he did not run enough havingness processes, because one can sure get the munchies after a good session.

Yes I agree there is a big in trom. But once you spot the bug it works. But it's not trom it's the mind. The big i see is when looking for "must not be knows" the mind says must not look- so it bounces you out. It's like a double wammy.

Could it also be that the To Know matrix is from the analytical mind, not the bank, or reactive mind?

Level two TROM / Re: March 29 '18 Session Win with Level Two
« on: July 15, 2018, 12:41:37 pm »
This idea of getting “done” with TROM is odd to me. I view TROM is First Aid skills which i use as life throws emotionally charged stuff at me. I use timebreaking or RI as needed to let go of the charged games that regularly come up in life while trying to get along with others at work, or with the wife or children or with authority figures etc.
I do not see any need to get done with TROM on a need to get skillful at applying the techniques to myself and to others.

Pete McLaughlin

Yes, Pete, fantastic first aid tools for our little toolboxes.  I'd certainly would throw in the Six-Directions and the Repeater Tech when they indicate.

What do you think about Dennis saying Level Five will vanish our minds - or more correctly, our fixation for or against minds?

Dennis' promise was that we would be able to be eternally a Voluntary Games Player, knowing all there is to know about games, with the option of going into a No Games Condition until we decide otherwise.

If you identify with a player or the referee or one of the teams then you will of course react to the situation....

What are you doing that is important to you and your family and your community. Put your attention on those things.

Keep on TROMing
Pete McLaughlin

Excellent advice, Pete.  In many sessions where I saw my past existences I was at first the actor and then my viewpoint extended out as I blew off the actor persona fixation, until finally I saw myself as originally the writer/producer, and there were all these beings watching the "movie". I always felt kind of hehe silly, having taken my acting role too seriously.

The problem with segments of Scientology church is they wanted you to invert your dynamics.  Bring up the condition of the first and second dynamic before obsessing about 3rd and 4th and 5th and 6th. 
Dennis advised being in good body and brain health to well DIY TROM.

Like athlete Wayne Gretsky once said, when you are on the playing field, taking an exterior viewpoint to your own body and the bodies of the "others" makes these 3rd and 4th dynamic games so much more fun.  Dennis says Level Four should enable this exterior viewpoint.

Yes there might be "cheaters" in the game - those with non-life goals or not acting for the greatest good - but a being who has cleared all its overts/motivators re the games they choose to play or watch even - well the attitude is it will always come out for good for that being, win or lose.   

"All things work together for good" is a great attitude.  For example, when our last-legs car suddenly breaks down, I've become quite philosophical and simply ask, "How could this be a good thing?" 

My personal insight re televised games is they are all rigged (sorry, but yes), and the consequences for that poor referee would be death times 100, thanks to our local Techno Gods.  Now if you really want to play a high level game, go after those ill-intentioned brothers and sisters who know your mind better than you do and can simply turn a dial on a console, if you get my drift. 

So, like Pete advised, maybe we should take a sabbatical from world changing games and first learn to be complementary with the biochemistry and anatomy of our body and its native self-healing restorative intelligence, and clear out all mental fixations, and go exterior, and find someone who wants to go with you on this sane journey. 

The [unreasonable] fun and games await you.

Yes, I concur, RI is much more than a havingness or satiation process and one can start to realize that the more they do it.
I actually many decades ago once actually/accidentally and with much surprise brought a small object into material existence simply by strong postulate.

BTW, I had to clear up what is a flywheel and perhaps this short video might help others too:

and here:

Survivor, what was your working definition of a flywheel in your example here?

Level three TROM / Scene Changes Experienced during Timebreaking
« on: April 27, 2018, 12:06:06 pm »
For several days I've been timebreaking a scene of a favorite childhood home, mostly focusing on the house and the property... the lawn, the stairs, the carpet, etcetera.  The more I keep timebreaking/looking the more I see that was previously occluded.  I also can't help but wonder, "where was I?" during that time.

As the timebreaking progresses I start to see more and more details, but then at some point the fixed viewpoint unfixes and I find I can consciously zoom in and zoom out re the scene - similar to that Google Maps zooming function.

Then I start getting cognitions from a higher viewpoint - about creating, who's doing the creating, etcetera, and from that higher viewpoint many similar scenes or related concepts/importances flash by, timebreaking at breakneck speed.

Timebreaking helps return me to a more original, unencumbered, and at the same time all-encompassing viewpoint.

Level one TROM / What Does Dennis Mean by the Concept "The Governor"?
« on: April 27, 2018, 08:32:35 am »
Why did Dennis use the word "governor" to describe the purpose of RI?  I've been trying to ignore that word.

To me RI satiates the mind's need for importances by consciously giving it more mass until the mind goes quiet, and then the timebreaking can well begin, whether at the beginning of a session or during a session.

My view is the mind hates a vacuum, so at the end of the session I also do RI until the mind is satiated ("no more change").

Coming from a scientology background I prefer to call it "running havingness", or a havingness process, and I know Dennis studiously avoided using scientology terms.

The best analogy I can think of is a mouse having a feeding device that is filled with pellets, and the mouse presses the lever and gets the pellet until it is satiated.

The governor implies restriction, and I think of RI as feeding the mind.

RI governs (i.e., restricts) the mind's will nilly creation of importances, and propensity to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I think, in that context, I am coming to a better understanding of why he used the word "governor"; whereas I tend to think of it as a "satiator" - it satiates the mind's need for importances: sensation, a game, a motivator, etc.

With RI you are getting complementary with the mind and at the same time getting command power over the mind without fighting with it. It reminds me of judo.  It feels good and imparts a peaceful feeling when run to no more change.

I could see myself giving classes in creative visualization per Dennis' instructs, and watching people get peaceful and enlightened about their mind and their ability to create.


Level two TROM / Re: March 29 '18 Session Win with Level Two
« on: April 24, 2018, 04:25:56 pm »
Many thanks to you and much gratitude for you going the extra mile (literally) to make Dennis' work accessible, thank you, sir.

Level two TROM / Re: March 29 '18 Session Win with Level Two
« on: April 24, 2018, 10:09:03 am »
Hello rvh,

It is great you have done Level Two, and might need merely a re-tread before starting into Level Three.

Truthfully, I should be on Level 4 by now, if I had not allowed myself to be distracted with "more important" interests, of which I have many at any one time... my creative urges are strong. It's as Dennis said, the desire to play is greater than the desire to vanish the mind.

The best thing I ever did, besides finding Dennis' data, was to get into a good working relationship with a long time friend who also became a Trommer shortly after I introduced it to him.

We work over skype almost every a.m. and he has been a big help to me.  We are on Level Three, running only mostly pleasure scenes after running RI until no more change - which can sometimes take up almost the whole session time.  Why we did not do this sooner - we both marvel at that. I think in the beginning we made the trom practices seem difficult and hard to duplicate.  Do you recall where Dennis said the first time he tried out Level Two it knocked him for a loop?  I think the exact words he used was that it nearly took his head off, or something like that. The same with my own case.

I studied most of Ron's materials and have had hundreds of hours of auditing outside the church - some of it actually useful, lol!

I am currently dedicated to testing out trom practices and theory, and am not doing any other practices.
Last year I did have an auditor run the "To Handle" process on me re my caretakers as a youth, with fantastic results re learned covert game strategies. I've also had some of John Galusha's tech run on me with fantastic results re stuck identity-forming postulates. That did calm my mind and helped stop me from crying about my case.

Currently we timebreak mostly pleasure scenes or scenes that are not heavy with trauma, and we feel this is a good gradient for us.  We kept asking ourselves how Dennis could have thought timebreaking was fun, and now we have an answer.  He also said not to be a martyr, and he was obviously a big believer in correct gradients. One has to find their own "sweet spot" or comfortable gradient from Level Three into Level Four.

Take as long as you need to take and make it fun, as you keep pushing the envelope on a good gradient for yourself. Just the fact that you put attention on your case and onto the inner workings of your mind and the minds of others, and learning about complementary postulates as opposed to contentiousness - you may get distracted but you will keep coming back until the job is done.

My twin and I are loving doing our practices more than ever before.  We look forward to our timebreaking sessions.
Currently we are timebreaking rather innocuous scenes from our childhood homes - taking a tour - and change is occurring, and we are having fun developing our timebreaking abilities.  This is real beginner level of Level Three.

My latest major case change is letting go of a need to know it all intellectually, and life became simpler, more humble, and I left the remaining Facebook groups where I was sharing my extensive knowledgebase and experience with others, answering questions. I did a hat write-up and de-activated Facebook, and I unsubscribed from a dozen Youtube channels.  I am no longer that person/postulate set  :)

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